Tassuperkarts GX Turbo (Updated again!)

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tassuperkart
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Post by tassuperkart » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:13 pm

Damo
I was hoping you might hit on this:

The "system" voltage the ECU's looks at is negative side of the injectors and latency tables are eventually calculated off this reading only.
The "system" voltage the ECU shows will be ignored as that is regulated to 3 and 5v anyway..
Latency times are purely injector dependant and they all tend to vary to a lesser or greater degree.

However, Ive been discussing this issue of mine on another ECU forum and Im suspecting there is more at play in my setup that meets the eye.

The Microtech originally came off my FJ20 and ran as sweet as you like. Pretty much oem. It was a kitten and youd NEVER know it had such an agricultural ECU fitted! I had the ECU modded for multiple coils and ran it that way for some years.
Something when i was playing around with it at the time has been gnawing away at me and Im suspecting that the sequential config of the ECU is dodgey and possibly running in BANK mode.
Im guessing that the ECU is triggering 2 injectors together in a "wasted injector" mode LOL!
So what im perhaps experiencing is a doubling of the injectors to a trigger event each 360 degrees rather than each injector triggering once each 720 degrees which would be true sequential.
So Im actually seeing a doubling of the latency time per cylinder firing event which is increasing the effects of latency by double. Especially iffen the 024's are touchy as far as dead time/voltage goes. This i dont know as Ive not looked up any latency tables for 024's.

The symptoms fits the scenario.

Since the FJ20et ran so beautifully, I just left it at that and didnt delve any further.

As far as EoI angles, i would not have the slightest idea and there is no facitities to adjust this in an old Microtech anyway. There is a shitload of driveability and often hidden horsepower being able to control this figure but only seriously high end clobber will have this feature coded. Like yours!

I dont have a scope but I might rig up some ghetto noids and confirm the triggering of the injector groups.

Interesting issue tho!

Oracle
Forcd4 wrote:Oh fuk no dude it's you a again, the oracle.

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Post by tassuperkart » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:00 am

Damo
Some interesting outcomes here on EOI from one of the very smartest of tuners I know of.
It pains me that this guy lives up your way and i cant drop in and pick his brains.... but thats how it goes mostly.

http://adaptronic.com.au/forum/index.ph ... n#msg18620

L8r
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Post by Damo » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:24 pm

That topic is exactly what I have read in an advanced tuning book I ot hold of a little while ago, and the reason why I asked about your end angle. Advanced air flow modeling talks about a quantity of fuel called Tau, this fuel is a constant amount which is purposely allowed to collect on the port wall opposite the injector nozzle. The idea is that with this quantity of fuel, the immediate increase of air flow from sharp positive throttle movement is already catered for before the ecu is able to react, due to the slight lag in signal response from it's sensors.
Tau is evaporated from the passing quantity of intake charge, so the greater quantity of airflow, the larger amount of fuel is evaporated. It basically allows for consistent afr even when there is no way to compensate correctly for the sudden airflow increase (especially with map based fueling).
The side benefit of Tau is that it evaporates with the entire inlet charge, not just when he injectors are doing their thing. What this means in a nutshell is that engines with average swirl and large injectors are able to have a far more even air fuel mix throughout the inlet charge rather than pockets of overly rich or lean which cause combustion inconsistancy.
The autronic has a 3d table for end angle to allow for fine tuning as Tau would be dependent almost exclusively on engine VE, or potential VE if you step on it.
Thinking about a bit more, this is probably why manufacturers usually have the injectors run close to 75% at max power of each individual engine, because the greater the DC of the injector, the more physical time it has spraying at the back of the inlet valve, resolving the mix inconsistency.
Do humanity a favor, use your brain and fight the forces of WOO WOO!


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Post by tassuperkart » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:51 pm

They actually like the fuel to collect on the back of the hot inlet valve and to be evaporated off much faster than sitting as an emulsion on the port walls.

However, know this. The whole show changes when going to a batch fired system where the injectors will fire at least twice per 720 degree cycle!!!!!

Hahahaha. its very interesting stuff tho.

l8r
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Post by Damo » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:55 pm

tassuperkart wrote:They actually like the fuel to collect on the back of the hot inlet valve and to be evaporated off much faster than sitting as an emulsion on the port walls.

However, know this. The whole show changes when going to a batch fired system where the injectors will fire at least twice per 720 degree cycle!!!!!

Hahahaha. its very interesting stuff tho.

l8r
Oracle
That's right, Tau actively reduces inlet charge temp as it cools the inlet valve (which means you can get away with much narrower valve seat width) and with a bit of reversion it also cools the lower end of the runner.

I noticed with Glen's LT dodgytech it 'seemed' to steady up the idle without changing anything on the fueling side when going from sequential to batched.

It's interesting to note that it didn't take manufactures long to drop the idea of trying to get all the fuel in with the valve open, ala Merc + Volvo in the 70's.


Damo
Do humanity a favor, use your brain and fight the forces of WOO WOO!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1mrbxhWU5Y

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Post by tassuperkart » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:13 pm

Yer combustion becomes less consistent and in fact the heavier particles of fuel, un atomised can actually increase detonation evon tho EGos reduce.....
My Adaptronic 420c does not have EOI tables as yet. However, this has been moved up the priority list for inclusion in later firmware updates.
The 1280 ecu incorporates this function and from memory can be set individually on each injector output.

I have a feeling the Pooser may have an issue with injector triggering due the marked sensitivity to voltage and latency.
There is a possibility that my ECU does not switch over to sequential firing even tho it is set in the config screens.
I have tried changin the screen from batch to sequential and I dont seem to be able to determine a change in engine behaviour which i really saould see.

meh, bloody cheap ECU's. However, my injector power supply works spectacularly well and will remain as a stopgap measure for the time being.
The biggest downfall so far is the amount of RFI generated by the power supply which is enough to go close to blanking off the incoming FM radio signal to the rockbox!

This concerns me a little with regards to effects of RFI on the Microtech itself. Who knows what effort Microtech took to shield the innards!
Ill look at mounting the power supply further away from the ecu and the radio rathetr than its current ghetto placement on the floor amongst the rest of the rubbish!!!!!!!

L8r
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Post by amraks » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:35 pm

Not sure if this will help but if you place this on your antenna cable it should shield it.

I have seen this with cheap psu on portable drives bought from china.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Diameter-9mm ... 53e93dfaf8
Amraks

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Post by tassuperkart » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:35 am

Might very well be worth a try, however, the rfi could be coming into the radio for god only knows how many sources from powersupplies, speaker wires, aidio cables or antenna leads.... itd be very hard to say!!!!!

Look pretty funny with about 5 of those things hanging off!

Makes sense tho.

l8r
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Post by amraks » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:34 pm

most stuff has this these days.

When you plug this cheap hard drive encloser into a ps3 you get static on the tv, i believe its from the psu. they have no rfi protecting on the usb lead.

I have a idea to test without buying one of these yet. if you have a old usb phone lead with one of these on it take it off that lead.

or if you don't need that cord again well you have saved 1 - 3 dollars.

Then the solution is free.
Amraks

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Post by tassuperkart » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:12 pm

Yep I agree.
However, ill move the psu first to a decent location away from the ecu and the radio. its just sitting on the floor at the minute!
cheers
E
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Post by amraks » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:16 pm

tell me if it works.

should be interesting.
Amraks

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Post by tassuperkart » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:33 pm

A few more things.
I finally got around to moving the injector power supply to a new location behind the passengers side kick panel. it has reduced the rf noise but not eliminated it.

I finally got around to mounting the ECU up and away, out of sight in the roof of the glovebox. I had to trim the back panel of the glovebox itself to clear the ECU and the wiring but its no real biggie and you cant see what i have done.

Next job was to fit a boost guage and an oil pressure guage. I bought those styepper motor guages that are black when switched off. Really nice looking guage and about 55 bucks mailed.
I mounted the boost guage in an old guage pod I had laying around on the r/h side of the instrument pod. Easy to read and looks OK there.
The oil presasure guage mounts on the flat surface between the radio fascia and the cigarette lighter.
I got funky and used those plastic shade thingies from another guage set and reversed it to make the guage point up and towards me to make it easy to read.

What I like about these particular guages (bought from Autoplatonium) is that they all connect to a 4 port connector block using standard connector plugs.
The guages are supplied with wiring harnesses fitted with the plugs and it makes wiring a breeze.
I only had to make 3 connections (12v +ive/-ive and dash lights) to run up to 4 guages!

Next job was to wire in a lead off the headlight circuit to the aux idle speed valve in the EGI manifold.
The motor is fairly lumpy and looses quite a few revs when the lights are switched on and chugs like mad so this little mod simply adds some rpm when the lights are switched on.
Works perfectly and lifts about 50 to 75rpm when the lights come on.
Im going to wire in the thermo fan and the heater fan motor onto the same valve using some doides so all three items dont come on together. both these other items draw a lot of amperage and slow the engine down when they come on.

I experimented with both the atmo (GX) and ET brake master cylinders and altho the atmo job has the higher rear bias, its still not nearly enough to result in safe braking. In the wet, the car is dangerous!!

Another issue is a fairly long and very light brake pedal feel which i dont like.
Most motor racers like a very solid pedal with short travel and mine is the opposite.
Its acceptable to actually disconnect the brake booster and run unassisted and still have a rteasonably light pedal with this thing!!!!
Braking power is simply amazing but feel is really lacking using the stock MC/booster on the bigger brakes so after some research, Im fitting a MC off a Nissan 300ZX twin turbo with ABS.
The mounting bolts are the same spacing as stock so it should be a doddle to fit.
I have only 2 hydraulic outlets on the Zed MC so ill have to combine the front pair and rear pairs of brake lines together before they get to the master cylinder tho. No biggie but just another process to get around.

This Zed cylinder uses much larger 26mm pistons which will harden up and shorten the pedal to buggery over the stock 20mm jobs but will move the bias further rearwards again necessitating the fitting of a brake bias proportioning valve into the system. Ill mount this discreetly in the car and will be able to dial out rearwards bias easily on the run!!!!

Im hoping that the combination of the very powerful brake package will overcome any issues with the booster being too small for such large MC piston size compared to stock.
I reckon Ill have the brakes of the century if it all comes together!

Lastly, i was given a turbo off an R32 RB20dett which is a hybrid t3 back end T28 front end jigger.
Sadly, I cannot use it easily as the turbo has screw in studs on the manifold flange and i dont have clearance to drill the manifold flange and moun this way. The turbo cannot be simplydrilled for plain holes like the T25 as 2 of the bolt holes are blind which is a bloody niucance as this turbo is somewhat smaller on the back end than an S15 or GTiR bb T28 turbo, more or less the same as a plain T25, so would suit the engine quite nicely sand spool up considerably sooner.
Im sorting a workaround for that and will report back later if I beat it!!

Thats it for now.

Oracle
Forcd4 wrote:Oh fuk no dude it's you a again, the oracle.

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Post by tassuperkart » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:50 pm

Turbos.
I looked around for a suitable replacement turbo to replace the ageing and unsophisticated T25/T25g hybrid I have had on. Im actually quite pleased with this thing which seems to respond quite well right down low in the revs...surprisingly so!

I looked around for a disco with the smallest back housing along with stock T28bb with no real luck. I discounted any of the GT series stuff as too pricey for my tightearsed nature V's performance gains!!!!

As things often do, parts im looking for come to me when I stop looking and a pair of TDo4/T28 hybrids have found their way into my posession!!
$250 bucks for the two is a nice deal and they came straight off a very potent 300ZXTT boosting at 17psi. By7 all accounts a real wepon of a thing.
They are bush bearing turbos but using the proven T28 back end on a good flowing TDo4 front end will provide a nice free flowing turbo which is what im looking for.
Only diadvantage I can see with these things will be the late(er) spooling matching with the peakiness of the cam. The current thingo takes care of the obvious hole in the power from the cam below 3000rpm making a reasonably smooth (surprisingly so) delivery of useful power from as low as 2200 to when the cam kicks at around 3500rpm. It makes for a very entertaining and flexible engine thats remarkably willing to pull from right down at idle.

Im expecting the thing to loose a bit of that flexibility one the larger hairdryer is on making the thing a lot more prone to wheelspinning when it all cams and boosts together. However, Im looking to boost the fucker to about 15psi and looking to return around 140Kw atw.

Next task is to install a better gearbox with an lsd and Im leaning towards a Mitsubishi V6 Magna box at the minute.
The seem to take serious punishment next to the very willing V6, no known issues apart from tired synchros and youll get that in anything and have a few LSD options as well.
Ill do some more research on that and see how it goes. Lots of tough options for gearboxes (6 speed sequential out of a Primera anybody??!!)
Also will open up options for bigger and easier to source clutches which will be a blessing as well!!!

Lastly, being a fan of Adaptronic programmeable ECU's (I have a 420C on my ute of death) I picked up another 420c in perfect condition off a M8 in Melbourne!
This is on its way to me as I type and will be fitted to the Pooser as soon as I have time.
Im looking forward to fully sequential adaptive and full time closed loop VE based self tuning, closed loop idle control, detonation sensing and control, Anti-lag, anti-stall, flat shifting, launch control, traction control, progressive closed loop boost control (varies boost in each gear in conjunction with traction control).
All this and much more for 650 bucks including a fully dressed loom and 3 bar map sensor. Just about plug and play!!!!
Did i say I was a fan of Adaptronic?????

More later.
Oracle
Forcd4 wrote:Oh fuk no dude it's you a again, the oracle.

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Post by Paul Smith » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:31 am

Yer mad ya bastard. :wink:

Will you be using FJ20T injectors?
Mods
T28 @ 18 PSI, Jap Inlet Manifold, VL TB, MSD Ignition, Supra Cooler, 3" Dump and 3" Exhaust, Coolingmist Water Injection, AMG Mags, Koni Adjustables, Whiteline Rear Swaybar, CMS Brake Rotors, Stage 2 Cam, 5th Injector

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Post by tassuperkart » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:56 pm

Nah Paul
I have fitted a set of Bosch 036's. A bit bigger (440cc) than FJ stuff and I have a couple of sets of them.

Oracle!
Forcd4 wrote:Oh fuk no dude it's you a again, the oracle.

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